Kenny went from a 154 to a 164 and is paying almost nothing for law school
Student story
- Starting score: 154
- Retake: 164 (November 2019)
- GPA: 3.73
- Law school: Loyola Law School, Los Angeles, class of 2023
- Scholarship: One of the largest Loyola gives out. His cost: a few thousand dollars a year.
- Program: About 2 months of LSAT Unplugged coaching after other prep programs
In his words
A 154 might not even have gotten me admission into Loyola, honestly.
Kenny
Don't be afraid to retake the LSAT if you feel like you need to.
Kenny
To pay almost nothing for law school and save hundreds of thousands of dollars from a 10 point increase is incredible.
Kenny
What 10 points was worth
I've been coaching the LSAT since 2005, and Kenny's 10 points is the cleanest example I have of a score turning into money. Same GPA, same school. The 164 paid for it.
He retook instead of settling. The first score might not have gotten him in at all. The retake got him in with one of the biggest scholarships the school gives.
He kept a schedule and protected his time off. Structured coaching hours, then real rest. He'd already burned out once on other programs.
He treated the application as the second half of the score. A 164 was still under the 25th percentile at his reach schools, so the personal statement and the why-this-school essay did the rest.
Individual results vary. Score increases depend on starting point, study time, and effort.
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Full interview transcript
Recorded July 2020.
Steve: Tell me a little about where you're at now. You're a few weeks, less than a couple months, before starting Loyola this fall. How are you feeling about it?
Kenny: I'm feeling okay. As we're recording this, Loyola still hasn't given us a direct answer on whether we're online, hybrid, or in person. Assuming LA sadly won't be coronavirus friendly by August, I think most likely it'll be online. We're just waiting for the news, but there's nothing I can really change. I just have to enjoy this summer, read some prep books here and there for law school, and be ready to possibly be online.
Steve: I think most schools are going to end up going online, especially if there's an open question about it. If things might look a little shaky, it's the safer route. I know I'm going to get questions on this, so what are some of the 1L prep books you mentioned?
Kenny: Just kind of a funny thing, to see what a 1L experience might be like. The classic one is by a former Harvard Law student, I forgot his name, but it's a good book. I've been recommended a few. "1L" is a really good one, I've heard great things. "Getting to Maybe" is also a classic that a lot of people recommend. Those are the two right now. I've heard about a few more but haven't touched those yet. I think I'll really start getting into those in a few weeks, since law school starts August 17th for me, so I still have a little time before I get going.
Steve: Good that you're reading a bit about it and learning about the process. Does Loyola tell you to do any prep in particular? Do they give you any guidelines?
Kenny: I think they're going to start telling us stuff once they give us our section assignments, which is coming up on the 20th of July. In terms of other resources, they've given us town hall meetings and webinars with some professors so we can get a sneak peek. Required readings, not necessarily, though there's a Loyola book club that's been passing around. I think it's a little too early for them to really tell us. But I know certain students in my incoming class were given a pre-1L Summer Institute kind of thing, I think Harvard was starting that, giving some students a chance to experience what 1L might be like. There's a whole debate about whether you get invited or have to sign up. I think you have to get invited, but by no means do I think you're disadvantaged if you don't do it.
Steve: No, I imagine you could walk in day one without any prep at all and you'll learn what you need to know. At the same time there are benefits to getting ahead a little, and I know a lot of gunners want to do at least some prep. There are varying schools of thought about this.
Kenny: I've seen advice to say don't do anything, and I've seen some who also happen to sell 1L prep say 1L prep is a good idea. But they could still be right, who knows. I guess I'll report back in a few months. Honestly, the advice has been nothing in the middle, it's kind of been polar opposites: don't go into law school having studied, enjoy the summer, read books, enjoy time with your family because you'll need it. But then there's also people who recommend reading those prep books, might as well get ahead since these kids are going to be super competitive, especially online. So I have no idea, it's kind of frustrating because I don't know what's going to be best. But ultimately everyone's going to start from the beginning somewhere, no one's gone to law school yet, that's the whole point of going.
Steve: That's a good approach, to make the most of the summer you have. I feel like that was kind of the mentality you took back when we were working together, one-on-one to prepare for the LSAT. I thought you struck a really good balance between being committed to the process without letting it completely take over your life to the point of burnout.
Kenny: I look back and that process was the fall semester of my senior year, so that was last year. Knowing the schedule you gave me, and knowing I had work to do most days, was great. I knew that after a certain time I was to go home, enjoy time with friends, enjoy time with good company. I think it was a good balance. By no means was it easy, but it was a much more efficient and effective approach.
Steve: We're speaking now beginning of July, you've got law school about a month and a half away. But to zoom back in time, it was fall semester of last year, fall 2019, you were studying for the LSAT and putting together your applications. Do you want to share a little about what that process was like?
Kenny: Of course, I always love sharing this, I think it could really help students. I started this whole law school process a couple years back when I first got interested in it, but it really began officially at the beginning of 2019, in January, when I started studying for the LSAT itself. I used some other test prep programs and was planning for March, but I ended up taking it in July, still wasn't ready, and that pushed me back, because I wanted to send in all my applications by October to be early. All the advice you and other industry professionals have given is that earlier is better, though it's not as important nowadays, I'd say. That set me back, so I realized I had to study really differently, much more efficiently and effectively. I started that process again in September during the fall of my senior year, and that's where I came across you. We worked together one-on-one for about two months, and I ended up taking it in November, which allowed me to still apply by January 6th. I sent in all my applications to the California schools I wanted, and a few more at the end of January just because, why not, there's still time. That was the process. If I'd known coronavirus was going to hit and I'd have more time, I might have retaken it again, because the LSAT Flex is definitely favorable for some students, including myself, I think. I don't regret anything, I'm happy to go to Loyola with the amazing amount of money they've given me, but looking back there are definitely some things I wish I'd known ahead of time.
Steve: There's always more you wish you could have done. With Covid you could have retaken it, but you still got a ton of scholarship money. Feel free to disregard this if you want, but I'm sure folks would be interested to get a sense of the magnitude of those LSAT scholarships. Are you willing to share anything about that?
Kenny: Yeah, I'm pretty transparent about scores, I think that'll be helpful. LSAT score wise, I was able to increase from a 154 to a 164. I always give credit to working together with you, Steve, the nuances of figuring out not only the LSAT but also the mental approach, not getting psyched out by certain things. Even something like getting a song stuck in my head was a huge thing we figured out.
Steve: And what type of scholarship money?
Kenny: Essentially I'm paying little to almost nothing to Loyola, maybe a few thousand dollars. I think it's one of the bigger scholarships they give out. I don't know how many other students were able to get it, but I don't think there's any repercussions for me talking about it, it's a great opportunity that I got. I know that other T14 or higher-ranked schools might have given me no money but still accepted me. I don't know if I would have gone that route, that's a tough decision, especially with Covid and family circumstances and trying to keep debt lower. I was really blessed to be given this opportunity to go with essentially no money out of my pocket.
Steve: That's incredible, and you say it so matter-of-factly, but I think it's actually huge. Most people don't realize how important this is, the debate over scholarships versus rankings. Loyola paying little to nothing could in some ways, in some situations, be better depending on your circumstances and your goals. To pay almost nothing for law school and save hundreds of thousands of dollars from increasing your LSAT score 10 points is incredible.
Kenny: You're totally right. I know you preach that to students, that they're retaking the LSAT not even to get into a higher school but just for more scholarship money. It's a really good thing to point out, because a 154 might not even have gotten me admission into Loyola, honestly. But studying a few more months and getting a 164 not only unlocked many other schools in that caliber, it unlocked a lot of scholarship money. I know I want to practice in LA, and Loyola is a great LA powerhouse school with a great alumni network, so it honestly worked out for the best. For anyone watching, if you study hard and stay faithful, things will work out in a really weird way. Back in November, when I was working with Steve, I was pretty stressed, and I didn't think I'd be in the position I'm in now.
Steve: To call that out again, the length of time you put into this. I helped you, we worked together, but you were at this for a long time even before we started. You mentioned January 2019 all the way through to November, so nearly an entire year you were focused on this.
Kenny: Crazy, I know. It's been a long time, and I studied during school, so people might say I could have done better if I'd just done it during the summer after senior year. Honestly, I've had this debate with a lot of other students. I think now is a good time to enter, especially with coronavirus, attorney work is going to be really helpful and necessary. You've mentioned it in a lot of your podcasts and YouTube videos, but there's the opportunity cost: if you don't go into this cycle, the next cycle might be even more competitive and you might get less money. It's not a guarantee, but it's something I had to think about, and I think it was the best attitude for me.
Steve: There are always going to be pros and cons, but it's important to think them through fully, not just go on gut instinct or emotion, because there are trade-offs and the repercussions of any choice are pretty large, especially when talking about the opportunity cost of salary as well as the cost of tuition.
Kenny: Of course.
Steve: One thing we didn't talk about, and feel free to cover only what you want, is GPA and parts of the application like the personal statement. What role, if any, do you think those played?
Kenny: That's a great point, I'm happy to share, I don't think there's any reason I can't. I got a 3.73 GPA from UC Berkeley, but calculated through LSAC I got a 3.74, so that gave me a 0.01 boost. The GPA was good, because for Loyola and other schools a 3.7 was in the 75th percentile, which helped in terms of scholarship money and looking like a competitive applicant. In terms of the personal statement, I think that's actually a really underrated area people forget about. I've been stressing this to two or three other people I'm currently helping as a friend through the law school process. Your personal statement is where you can really differentiate yourself. Personally, I think that's the reason I got wait-listed at a school like Berkeley, where my scores were clearly under both the 25th percentile, and I don't know if I'll get off the waitlist or not. But I think a personal statement and a "why Berkeley" that really showed I cared about being there made the difference, along with letters of rec from professors at Berkeley. It's always going to be a question in my mind, but it seems like a logical thing, I think the personal statement helped a lot.
Steve: I'd certainly imagine so. Let's bring it back to the present. We're looking ahead toward Loyola maybe being online this fall. How are you feeling about the prospect of online law school, and what have you heard about the spring semester or others' experiences?
Kenny: We have a Loyola Law School class of 2023 group chat, having these conversations every day, so I have a lot to share. I think I can represent the voices of maybe a few hundred students. We're all pretty uncertain about things. Some of us are excited it might be online because we can be safe and not risk exposure. A lot of us are bummed it's not going to be in person, because as anyone knows, 1L is such a social, vibrant experience in your law school career. I think the overall consensus, including myself, is that we're all pretty bummed it might be online. We want it to be in person, but we're going to respect whatever decision Loyola makes and whatever the CDC and WHO decide, because they know what's best and we need to stay healthy. A lot of us are going to live at home. I'm living at home for at least the first semester if it's online or hybrid, because I luckily live maybe 30 to 45 minutes away, and I have parents to think about, they're in their mid-60s, and I need to make sure they're healthy too.
Steve: It sounds like you're taking a very reasonable, prudent course of action. Hopefully things will improve over the next several months, in the spring or beyond.
Kenny: I have no idea what spring will look like. Based on what I've seen on CNN and CBS, if we don't have a vaccine, it's tough to say what it'll be. I have no idea, and that's why, although I wish Loyola and other schools could give an answer soon, I also respect what they're doing and don't blame them, because they themselves have no idea what to do. It's unfortunate, but you have to understand it's a hard situation for everyone.
Steve: Everyone's doing their best with imperfect information. I'm sure they'd do it in person if they thought they could, but there would also be a massive disruption cost if they had to switch midway through, and if someone got sick or worse there are liability issues, and just basic moral issues to contend with. I wouldn't fault anyone for being online in this situation, I think it's probably the best course of action for all schools this fall.
Kenny: You've probably been following the news too. I know you have a Facebook group where people post about the latest news. There's definitely been a wave of schools going online, so I wouldn't be surprised in the next few weeks to see a trend of more schools doing the same, because morally, health-wise, and ethically, it'd be tough to go in person and then have someone get sick.
Steve: Well, Kenny, this has been a blast. Anything else you want to share, advice for pre-law applicants, before we wrap up? And I'd love to do another one down the line to update folks on your law school journey.
Kenny: Any video you want to do, please let me know, I love these kinds of things, looking forward to that. For anyone watching or listening, first of all, Steve's been a great resource for me, so have trust in him, he's pretty much dedicated his life to this, so trust what he's saying. It really helped me. And if there's one piece of advice, it's don't be afraid to retake the LSAT if you feel like you need to. That advice for me not only got me acceptance into a school I'm so excited to go to, it gave me so much more scholarship money, which made me feel like I was in control of the process. Now I'm confident I don't have to worry about the money when I go to school, I can worry about getting good grades, meeting great friends and colleagues, and really excelling. So focus on the LSAT. The other parts of the application are important, the LSAT is pretty important too, so don't stress, but take your time and try your best on it.
Steve: Couldn't agree more. Thank you again for having this conversation with me. All the best as you start law school in August, stay safe, and we'll do an update in a few months.
Kenny: Looking forward to it, thanks, dude.
Individual results vary. Score increases depend on starting point, study time, and effort.
More student stories: Zach, 151 to 176, Annie, 153 to 170, Stanford Law, Judy, 161 to 171, Columbia Law, James, 157 to 168, Natalie, 147 to 170 All LSAT Unplugged reviews
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